Curse

Kendel · Aug 05, 2009, 06:24 AM // 06:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avarre

Alternatively, add a 'SF is disabled for 60 seconds' clause on it, similar to Dervish Forms, so that fast recharge effects don't work on it. SF will still be viable as a target-sniping skill for solofarming or for running (where the penalty is largely irreleant), but no longer a tanking skill.

Thats what i've always thought. Disable it to render all recharge buffs useless, if necessary turn it into a Dervish form skill to block Arcane Mimicry too (and extend its duration slightly to compensate for the lack of enchantments mod). Lets it be used for the old boss killing with A/E//E/A without it being (ab)used as an invincible tank.

Ugh · Aug 05, 2009, 06:54 AM // 06:54

K let's back up. I seem to have misunderstood some part of the past couple posts. Allow me to clarify my point.

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one of the qualifications of a "good" nerf to UWSC would be that it doesn't screw up the "normal" groups (that the whining smiters-boon-craving crowd insist never happen), right?

Normal groups a.k.a. balanced groups, right? If not, be more clear in your posts. These do not happen in PUGs. Which, to me, is a normal group. My alliance is pretty much purely social so no luck there. And don't tell me to find new friends or submit to UWSC because you would be contradicting your previous argument that one should not have to submit to another's mighty playstyle.

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Obviously you didn't assume that, since "balanced" groups happen every 1-2 weeks in my alliance, and you said it's a fact that they don't happen. So either you didn't assume that and you're backpedaling, or you're simply wrong.

Just because something happens in your alliance, does not mean that it is practiced anywhere else. No alliance that I have ever been in has run balanced teams, so, from my experiences, that is not the norm.

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So you think the permasin nerf would stop team farms? They would be replaced. They're not required, they're simply the best way to accomplish the task for the role they fill in those teams.

Are you even reading what I'm replying to? You argued that sins had no farms other than farms "that matter" (either you forgot the "don't" or were trying to be sarcastic, I dunno) and you asked me to give an example other than UWSC. So, I did. I never said that they would fall apart without the perma. Although, they probably would (unless you want to wait 20 minutes for a terra tank to crawl around an area).

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You're high.

You're mature.

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Click > 1 > 2 > click > 1 > 3.
That's all it takes to be a good prot monk.

When you reduce things to keypresses, especially things you know nothing about, you miss the point.

Protting requires timing and battlefield awareness. If you just start hitting keys, your team will die. 1 > 2 > 3 for a perma gives you invincibility. After that, you can do whatever the hell you want. Just make sure you do it again before SF runs out. There's no possible argument that that is difficult and you're well aware of that. So, you cover that up with childish remarks, insults, and half-baked arguments.

If you were talking about 600 monks then you should be more clear. And I agree that 600s require as much thought as a perma (none), but this is the wrong thread for that.

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Actually, you're apparently the one who cannot only not take a hint, but cannot even READ.

Sorry. I should have gone to the wiki and read through hundreds of updates to make sure my argument on GWG that Anet won't even listen to is as precise as possible. And yes, that makes me illiterate. More insults and childish behavior.

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And when it's "balancing" factor means instant death when it's not avoided, making it unavoidable is smiters' booning the skill. I am aware that this is what you and others like you want, but it is bad design and a bad approach.

As I have previously stated, that's not what I want. I hate the 25/90 nerfing style:

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I was hoping for a change that could help sins become viable in ways other than perma. Make them more powerful for something other than tanking. Which, according to their low armor and high mobility, was not their intended function.

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Evidently the devs made a CONSCIOUS DECISION to NOT break the permanent maintainability of shadow form.

If this skill is not nerfed, I will lose much faith in the dev team. To me, it would show they are lazy and have officially given up on GW1.

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Permaform has been the best thing to ever happen for me because I'm an adult and have a life and don't have 100000000 hours to put into the game to get some FoW armor.

If you didn't work for your e-peen, you didn't earn your e-peen. Everyone has a busy schedule (but not today, sick day

), you're no different from anyone else. Once again, I see this as a big middle finger to everyone who actually earned their armor. And yea, I know it doesn't matter and it's just for e-peen, so no need for anyone to remind me.

remicks · Aug 05, 2009, 07:20 AM // 07:20

I don't even know where to start, and there is way too many threads to quote on this.

Alot of you guys make valid points for and against a SF nerf (for the record I personally think it should be more of a Vow of Silence style skill, flame away - I honestly couldn't care one bit...), and for and against a UW change/nerf (for the record once more I don't UW hardly at all, and FoW armor is ugly as hell imho for the most part, once again flame away - I honestly still don't care...).

In the end I do as a casual gamer see how it does affect other people's gameplay. Finding a non-UWSC group even within an active alliance is all but non-existent nowadays, BUT... Specialized teams/builds are nothing new to GW.

Overall I do believe something needs to be done about the UWSC as a whole, but bringing the nerf-cannon out and taking aim at SF might not be the optimal choice in this situation. More ideas need to be explored before you take the viability of a skill away from all of PvE just because it is being abused by a small group of people in the elite areas of the game.

Besides, haven't the Assassins suffered enough already?

Targren · Aug 05, 2009, 02:50 PM // 14:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avarre

Giving it an RaO-esque rebalance of dramatically adjusting recharge time and duration, either to make it unmaintainable (in which case, the ending penalty could be reduced or dropped), or impossible to maintain by normal energy recharge, would probably kill most complaints.

No, they've actually already done that. Without an essence, perma-SF results in a net loss of energy if you do anything to do damage (which you pretty much have to do with the damage nerf).

SF + DP + GoS = 30e in 22.5 sec (with max recharge reduction of 50%)

Assassins have 4 pips of e-regen, which is 4/3 e/sec, or exactly 30e in 22.5s.

Other than the high-end stuff (UW, etc...), it's generally not cost-effective to use an essence for most farms (which drops the cost to 20e every 22.5, leaving you with what is still a paltry amount of energy for damage. You still need a zealous scythe/daggers to keep at it, or spend a lot of downtime waiting for natural recharge)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ugh

K let's back up. I seem to have misunderstood some part of the past couple posts. Allow me to clarify my point.

Normal groups a.k.a. balanced groups, right? If not, be more clear in your posts. These do not happen in PUGs. Which, to me, is a normal group.

Normal groups = Not meta/gimmick groups, in the context that I used it (which was not directed at you). If you consider a PUG to be a normal group, then your definitions are flawed. As I said, a UW PUG group will always be either inexperienced, or meta.

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My alliance is pretty much purely social so no luck there. And don't tell me to find new friends or submit to UWSC because you would be contradicting your previous argument that one should not have to submit to another's mighty playstyle.

I wouldn't dream of telling you to find new friends or learn to UWSC. I will, however, ask you to stop bitching because YOU made a choice to join a social alliance instead of one that will play the game with you, and point out that that decision was yours and is NOT grounds for forcing others to change how they play.

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Just because something happens in your alliance, does not mean that it is practiced anywhere else. No alliance that I have ever been in has run balanced teams, so, from my experiences, that is not the norm.

And just because something doesn't happen in yours, doesn't mean it never happens. Spend less time in "social" alliances and you might be surprised.

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Are you even reading what I'm replying to? You argued that sins had no farms other than farms "that matter" (either you forgot the "don't" or were trying to be sarcastic, I dunno) and you asked me to give an example other than UWSC.

Evidently, you're having reading comprehension problems again. I made no such argument, so put that strawman away. I said to come up with a subset of farms that ONLY sins could do, and I even gave you a distilled series of steps to reach that subset.

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Protting requires timing and battlefield awareness. If you just start hitting keys, your team will die. 1 > 2 > 3 for a perma gives you invincibility.

After that, you can do whatever the hell you want. Just make sure you do it again before SF runs out. There's no possible argument that that is difficult and you're well aware of that. So, you cover that up with childish remarks, insults, and half-baked arguments.

And accomplish nothing. See above, my notes about e-management and skill choice. But you're going to disregard that because it doesn't suit your weak argument. And I never said it was difficult. I said it wasn't as simple as you make it out to be.

As for half-baked arguments, please try to be more understanding. Irony meters are too expensive for you to be blowing up 3 of them with every post.

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Sorry. I should have gone to the wiki and read through hundreds of updates to make sure my argument on GWG that Anet won't even listen to is as precise as possible. And yes, that makes me illiterate.

No... making arguments based in direct opposition to what is written, setting up weak strawmen, and a general failure of logical reasoning make you seem illiterate.

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If this skill is not nerfed, I will lose much faith in the dev team. To me, it would show they are lazy and have officially given up on GW1.

If it is nerfed, it will probably be smiters' booned, because that's the only thing that will shut people like you up. And then I will have lost faith in the dev team, because it means they are lazy and will always go for the low-hanging fruit. Smiters' boon is the perfect example. That was supposed to be an "emergency nerf" to fix the meta for the then-upcoming skill update. How long did the fix take?

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If you didn't work for your e-peen, you didn't earn your e-peen.

You do realize that e-peen is a sardonic term, for something that someone thinks makes them a big shot but is not actually any sort of achievement worth recognition. No one "earned" their armor, they just PLAYED A GAME.

Dzjudz · Aug 05, 2009, 02:54 PM // 14:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ugh

If you didn't work for your e-peen, you didn't earn your e-peen. Everyone has a busy schedule (but not today, sick day

), you're no different from anyone else. Once again, I see this as a big middle finger to everyone who actually earned their armor. And yea, I know it doesn't matter and it's just for e-peen, so no need for anyone to remind me.

Still though, what the hell do you mean by 'earning' anything in Guild Wars?? Any and all valuable drops in Guild Wars are completely random. What takes one person 4 years to not earn obsidian armor might take the next person 2 months, and that's by doing the exact same things. If they made all drops rigid, like a set item or a set number of items from every end chest, you would know going in, based on the value of those items, how long it would take to earn enough for obsidian armor. As it is, however, with the randomness of all drops, if they nerf all speed clear possibilities, it might take one person one completion of UW to get a crazy expensive drop, while it might take the next person 500 completions of UW to get one drop half as expensive.

The point of farming is to get money despite the randomness of the drops. Keep doing the same thing over and over again until you finally get what you want or what you need to buy something. Now I'm not saying to take out the random element from the game. I'm just saying that because it's random, farming will always take place.

Once again, how does anyone earn anything in this game, according to you? And furthermore, how does anyone else getting something faster or more easily than you affect your gameplay in any way? It happens all the time in GW because of the randomness of the drops, not because of the speed clears.

Toxic OnyX · Aug 05, 2009, 03:11 PM // 15:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gennadios

Or they can just make SF unmaintainable. Problem solved.

What and make all the farming chimpanzees cry???

i love these threads as it never takes long for any of the permas to start with how SF isnt godmode, a-net made it this way so it could be used this way etc....

Doesn't change the fact that SF broke the game mechanic, a-net are to slow to fix it (as always) and why PvE is held in such contempt by the majority of players, due to the fact that a lot of PvE players understand synergy about as far as GoS+DP+SF = farming for shiny crap and if you get hit once an hour then it proves it isn't god mode or broken or any of the other lame excuses they give for running said build

Still you can't blame them, why spend 3 hours to complete an area if you can do it in 10-12 minutes due to poor skill balance, and broken mechanics implemented by the "devs" of the game who seem to take at least 6 months to get off their ass and actually rectify anything

I am so glad I have retired from this game as anytime I log in I am told that things are as bad as they have ever been and actually coming onto these forums and seeing the same posts asking the same questions and still nothing rectified or answered by the "Community relations Team" just proves this game has died.

see you all in a few months when I check in again to see if anything has changed lol

Avarre · Aug 05, 2009, 03:42 PM // 15:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avarre

Giving it an RaO-esque rebalance of dramatically adjusting recharge time and duration, either to make it unmaintainable (in which case, the ending penalty could be reduced or dropped), or impossible to maintain by normal energy recharge, would probably kill most complaints.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Targren

No, they've actually already done that.

I'm not sure I agree. SF is still quite clearly maintainable alongside offense costs on the energy management that a single character can bring. No external energy support is required (not counting consumables, which are a given in a speed clear).

Toxic OnyX · Aug 05, 2009, 03:46 PM // 15:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avarre

I'm not sure I agree. SF is still quite clearly maintainable alongside offense costs on the energy management that a single character can bring.

good point, but to counter they offense costs they intorduced skills and consumables that negated the loss so in effect the offense cost meant nothing

It is simply a case of the devs really having to rebalance the whole skill lines as well as stopping the ability to perma SF, Chain Spell Breaker or chain Ob Flesh, there simply should be no god mode at all, tank and spank is one thing, but standing there for a year and a day taking no damage is clearly broken

Targren · Aug 05, 2009, 03:48 PM // 15:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avarre

I'm not sure I agree. SF is still quite clearly maintainable alongside offense costs on the energy management that a single character can bring. No external energy support is required (not counting consumables, which are a given in a speed clear).

No, no *external* support is required, but you originally said "not maintainable by normal energy recharge" which they have, indeed, done, and it didn't kill any complaints. A zealous scythe or dagger is usually enough, alongside GoLE(for A/E, optional).

But what you're getting at is that if every perma needed his own personal BiPer, you think that would make a difference?

Reformed · Aug 05, 2009, 03:59 PM // 15:59

Hello all, I am one of those silent majority types often referred to on here who don't say much and just play the game. This was an interesting read though so I decided to register and weigh in.

I have had a "permasin" for about a year and a half now and use him somewhat often. I find UWSC and other speed clears to be boring outside of the incredibly low odds on an Eternal or what have you. He is not my main character and typically I drag him out when I want a green or for raptors...things like that. Just want it to be clear I'm in the "haves" camp.

What I find confusing are a couple points...

First, why even argue for balance in PvE at this point? It's a stacked deck, you fight monsters that are using mechanics unavailable to players (multi-elite, hot swap on attributes, greater than 200 attribute points, levels well above 20, etc.). We have also been given PvE skills which are by design outside of normal gameplay or does anyone think skills like Mindbender (read: I'm also secretly a Mesmer with 15FC and a 33% IMS) are balanced?

Second, where are the complaints about 600 monks? I don't see anyone complaining about CoF being farmed into oblivion worse still SoO or does anyone wonder where all these super expensive BDS's are coming from? How about the infamous Titan gemstone famine/smite run that made many a monk filthy rich until the price finally collapsed?

I'm left to wonder if the most vocal opponents to Shadow Form are in fact people who are too lazy or otherwise disinterested to make an Assassin. The fact is it's here so by not using it you are really only punishing yourself. Why would you deliberately handicap your available options in what should otherwise be a game you enjoy?

Serious questions and observations here folks. Thanks.

Trub · Aug 05, 2009, 04:02 PM // 16:02

Just, wow.
Reading thru all of these posts.....just...wow.
Avarre, I have to agree with you on all of your above statements, The game is BROKEN.
The 'newer' players who have not experienced the same game as we had...are at a huge dis advantage.
I'm going to give these players the benefit of the doubt.
Believe me guys, this game was not originaly created as a 'speed-thru-everything-in-god-mode-collect-phat-lewt-in-10-minutes-a-sitting' sorta game.
I have a life, and of those that know me, you understand that my time IS very valuable. My leisure time is just that...leisure.
And yes, I hear all of you 'But I have a real life! I don't have time for waiting an hour to gather a group, and play through such a HARD elite area in 3 hours!' crowd.
Select a different area in accordance with your skill then.
It was character development, earning skills, gaining more powerful gear and attributes to spend for more powerful skills...ect.
Now it seems to be a 'gib me 3k for cons, this is an UWSC/FoWSC/DoASC sorta thing...oO
I am more and more grateful for my guild every day.
We are 'old school', many call it physway....we call it balanced.
Enjoy the game` good luck, and have fun!

Avarre · Aug 05, 2009, 04:05 PM // 16:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Targren

But what you're getting at is that if every perma needed his own personal BiPer, you think that would make a difference?

I meant by 'normal' as in 'as is possible with one character'. I should have clarified that further. It should be obvious, though, given how pretty much any character in GW uses energy support skills.

I wouldn't mind seeing SF possible under BiP, since you bring up that example. That forces SF to work in a tandem, similar to 55/SS. That said, comparing SF and 55/SS would still be a pretty high disparity in terms of bar compression - all the offense and defense fitting on one bar. Regardless, the change I would prefer is simply making it impossible to chain - along with other immunity skills like SF and Ob Flesh as Toxic mentioned.

Targren · Aug 05, 2009, 04:16 PM // 16:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avarre

Regardless, the change I would prefer is simply making it impossible to chain

Honestly, though, if it were impossible to chain, it would have to have at least the life-loss malus removed to prevent the Smiters' Boon treatment. Otherwise, it's an "I am guaranteed to be one hit from death in 20 sec" skill. And even with that, it would basically become an "Oh shit" button which may or may not ever be triggered.

Which means it would only find a spot in builds centered around it where nothing does better, which would lead to a renewal of the crying about it. On a non-gimmick bar, it would be a waste of an elite, not unlike Energy Drain.

Avarre · Aug 05, 2009, 04:20 PM // 16:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Targren

Honestly, though, if it were impossible to chain, it would have to have at least the life-loss malus removed to prevent the Smiters' Boon treatment. Otherwise, it's an "I am guaranteed to be one hit from death in 20 sec" skill. And even with that, it would basically become an "Oh shit" button which may or may not ever be triggered.

Which means it would only find a spot in builds centered around it where nothing does better, which would lead to a renewal of the crying about it. On a non-gimmick bar, it would be a waste of an elite, not unlike Energy Drain.

It saw a lot of use in unmaintainable builds for zone/chest running and boss farming. And to be fair, it was pretty ridiculously good at those too. SF also saw use in top-end GvG during the (I believe) Round 3 qualifier tournament for the GWFC, by [WM].

Mokeiro · Aug 05, 2009, 04:22 PM // 16:22

SF farm will never ever be nerfed cause of this:

Community: ANET, ANET look at this, SF is broken, hardmode is a joke and ectos are as common as grass.

Farmers: No, SF is not broken, it takes a lot of skills.

ANET: ..........

Community: Yes, is broken, ANET nerf it!!

Farmers: No, is not, leave it untouched or ill leave!!!

Community: Leave then!! you lazy guy

ANET: ..........

NCsoft: WTH is happening here? What's all the rant and QQ i hear left and right?

ANET: Players are discussing over permaway.

NCsoft: Well, what are you going to do? and before you answer, remember i have the money, and i want more.

ANET: ........., yes sir, as you wish sir, well, our first instinct was to nerf it, but soon we realize all those mindless childs farming everywhere with SF, will soon need more and more storage, so leave them farm all they want, they will end up buying more storage and accounts to save their goods, and thats is more $$$$$ for your pocket oh great master.

NCsoft: And what happens to those players who argue GW has lost it's essence and now is just another mindless korean mmorpg grindfest? We are going to lose those players?

ANET: Don't worry mylord, as you know those pesky players already paid, and they have no interest in buying our microtransactions, so they are not an income source right now, so if they leave, we don't mind, but don't worry sir, our evil plan is promising those players, GW2 will be the game GW1 we promised them to be, so they will come back soon, with loads of fresh money for you mylord. MWHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.

Targren · Aug 05, 2009, 04:55 PM // 16:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avarre

It saw a lot of use in unmaintainable builds for zone/chest running and boss farming. And to be fair, it was pretty ridiculously good at those too. SF also saw use in top-end GvG during the (I believe) Round 3 qualifier tournament for the GWFC, by [WM].

But those are "gimmick" one-off builds, too. And to be fair, the game has changed a lot since then, especially in terms of monster-density (EotN, particularly) and PvE skills. Why use unmaintainable SF and hope to the gods that the SOB goes down in 22 seconds, when you can use PI et al to spike the bugger into oblivion.

Mouse at Large · Aug 05, 2009, 05:10 PM // 17:10

I've seen a few threads mentioning perma OF and SF as virtually the same thing. Get it straight - they ain't. Sure, in terms of anti-caster protection, they are comparable, but nothing in OF causes physicals to miss, therefore all the consequences of a successful hit by a physical opponent/attack are there. Even when combined with Stoneflesh/Stone Striker/Mantra of Earth to mitigate direct damage there is cripple/bleeding/stance removal/interrupts/knockdowns etc.etc.etc. to counter you.

I wonder what would be the effect if the functionality of SF was changed from attacks missing to being blocked???

Avarre · Aug 06, 2009, 12:21 AM // 00:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Targren

But those are "gimmick" one-off builds, too. And to be fair, the game has changed a lot since then, especially in terms of monster-density (EotN, particularly) and PvE skills. Why use unmaintainable SF and hope to the gods that the SOB goes down in 22 seconds, when you can use PI et al to spike the bugger into oblivion.

There will always be gimmicks for niche use, and that's not entirely a bad thing. My point, however, was that the skill as an unmaintainable had multiple viable uses and thus the idea that receiving the penalty would 'smiters-boon' the skill is incorrect. Leave an option for those without eotn, yes?

If we're going to talk about other PvE skills, I'd say they're a problem of their own. Having to put restrictions on new skills when there are 1000+ in the game just suggests they are a head above the others, which... is pretty ridiculous.

Snow Bunny · Aug 06, 2009, 12:45 AM // 00:45

I mean SF is maintainable invincibility...

why is this even a debate?

Lishy · Aug 06, 2009, 12:50 AM // 00:50

@Snow Bunny: Because the community likes to complain and blow things out of proportion. Once one thing is nerfed, they jump to the next thing.
Next people will complain about trinecros and already are -_-